Exclusive interview with Ann Linde - Transcript
Transcribed and translated into English for the Change Rebels podcast.
“It only strengthens me in my belief, that you must have active youth collaboration if you want to push things forward. It is young people who have brought this change forward.”
Emelie Weski, podcast host: (Cool synth music intro and then synth music in background)
Today we are talking Swedish foreign policy. Our guest is one of the selected leaders to take point in a new global coalition for an accelerated global effort on gender equality. Together with her colleague, Sweden's Minister of Defence, she has also taken on another major mission during the fall: to update the international program of the political party of the Social Democrats, and indirectly the Swedish foreign policy. She began her career as a changemaker and youth activist in the role of Secretary General of LSU - the National Council of Swedish Youth Organizations and is today best known as - Sweden's Foreign Minister, Ann Linde.
With what mindset did you enter the role of Foreign Minister?
Ann Linde, minister of foreign affairs:
Yes, it is actually the case that I have been working with international issues all my life, and before I got involved with LSU, you had to be part of a member organisation, so before that I was even part of something called SECO [a.k.a. Swedish Federation of Student Unions], which was the student organisation at that time.
Emelie Weski, podcast host:
Right.
Ann Linde, minister of foreign affairs:
It [SECO] has changed its name several times. I actually was a member of my first European board already when I was 15 or 16 years old. I believe international affairs is about working for peace, freedom and security. It is always better to resolve conflicts through dialogue than militarily. But it is difficult with dialogue. It is not just about cozying up a little, it is often a process full of struggles, but it is always the better choice. This is for example also why the EU is so important.
When I was part of LSU we had major discussions in LSU's board about whether we should join the European Youth Forum, even though we [Sweden] were not part of the EU. We did become an observer member.
To keep talking is super super hard sometimes. I think this is the key to resolving conflicts.
Emelie Weski, podcast host: (Synth music in background)
When we met in January, at the annual conference of Society and Defence, there were mainly two items on [the security] agenda. Your, relatively new, appointment as Foreign Minister after Margot Wallström, specifically your different views on the arms exports. The second was the new order of geopolitics with China and Russia as front runners, after that President Trump and the United States had withdrawn from several global agreements. At that time we did not know that just a month later, that the whole world would be hit by a global pandemic. Something that at least temporarily, would silence millions of protesters who around the world in 2019 had arisen to drive democracy.
What impact has the past year had on Swedish peace and security policy?
Ann Linde, minister of foreign affairs:
Yes, the last year has affected us very, very much. The polarisation between countries and within countries has become much more obvious, for example what is happening in Belarus now. Back then, we could not have imagined that it [Belarus] would be as big of an event as it is today. But we can come back to that.
We do have a great need for international cooperation. We are a medium-sized country in northern Europe and we are negatively affected if other countries do not wish to cooperate. It is a disadvantage that the UK is leaving the EU. It is not good for Sweden, not for the EU and not for Great Britain either. But we will be affected by it.
The United States has opted out of several co-operative bodies, not least the World Health Organisation, where it is important to have an international perspective and to co-operate. We have… there is a lot to do but basically it [WHO] functions well. And we have given a lot of support.
I would like for the United States to be an active partner and get involved. Right now when we are recording this podcast, the conventions, the convention of Democrats and Republicans, are taking place, and for me it is important to emphasise that we want an active United States. You do not resolve conflicts by leaving collaborations, you resolve conflicts by participating in collaborations.
Sweden must be strong, it must be secure, and we need to be a force to be reckoned with also as there are a lot of tensions.
“I believe that the settlement made in connection with the pandemic, with connected financial support to different countries, has actually become the tool that will work.”
Emelie Weski, podcast host: (Synth music in background)
You just mentioned what is happening in Belarus, Sweden will next year also join OSSE’s [the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe] leadership troika. There is already an Article 7 procedure against Hungary and Poland. And this week I spoke to a trans activist in Poland, and she had almost forgotten that there even was an Article 7 procedure against Poland. Can you tell us a little about what Sweden is doing to ensure that not only are new initiatives raised, but that they are also completed, implemented and have an effect?
Ann Linde, minister of foreign affairs:
On the one hand, we do have good cooperation with Poland, they will after us... this year we are the chairman of the OSCE and part of the [OSCE leadership] troika, and then it is Poland after us. So we need to work closely together on peace and security issues. When it comes to the rule of law principles and not least the LGBTQ issues then we have very different views on development.
As EU Minister, I worked practically with the so-called Article 7 procedure. Which states that if a country does not uphold the EU’s values of democracy, human rights, the principles of the rule of law, all found in the EU treaty, the second paragraph, then you can initiate a procedure like this, which first leads to a political procedure, and then subsequently, it may lead to cuts in terms of support, of financial support and voting rights, and so on. What we have seen, in reality the measures have been far too weak, if you want to get any concrete results, unanimity is required. Both Poland and Hungary have said since the beginning that they will always support each other, so since the beginning it has been a given that the outcome would not end up the way the majority wishes it to turn out.
The good thing is that there have been hearings with Poland and Hungary on these topics. Which means that light is being shed on the issues.
I believe that the settlement made in connection with the pandemic, with connected financial support to different countries, has actually become the tool that will work. As part of the deal it says that now we will have to look at whether a country can receive money if they do not follow the principles of the rule of law, human rights, and so on. And the settlement does not require unanimity. I think that's the way things will be solved. Money bites. Conditionality in different budget contexts, foreign aid contexts… If you don’t follow this, you won’t get money. I think it is much more effective than what we have tried so far.
Emelie Weski, podcast host: (Synth music in background)
You posted just yesterday on facebook, that you are about to update the international program of the Social Democrats, I thought this was very exciting. Clear input from me of course…Is that there today are 1.8 billion people aged 10-24 - that is the largest generation of young people ever in history. According to the UN's population prospect for 2019, young people also make up the majority of people living in places affected by armed conflict and violence. What do you think should be done to strengthen young people's freedom of action and meaningful participation in the building of peace and democracy? And what will you try to do in order to include youth in the drafting of your own international program?
“Young people have been absolutely crucial in raising the priority of these issues, and ultimately, putting them on the political agenda, these issues were nowhere to be found just some years ago.”
Ann Linde, minister of foreign affairs:
This is something that I hope many organisations and parties work on. The international program, it was quite a long time ago that my own party, the Social Democrats, it was when I was the international secretary in 2005, that we wrote it. We have had round tables and working groups, and then there is the main group of about 10 participants, including SSU [Social democrat Youth League], which is led by me and Peter Hultqvist [minister of defence], we want to include many topics, some had less relevance 15 years ago, but that have been pushed forward of very strong youth movements. I am thinking mainly of the climate and also sustainability issues in the broader context. But also LGBTQ rights. SRHR, Sexual, Reproductive and Health Rights. Young people have been absolutely crucial in raising the priority of these issues, and ultimately, putting them on the political agenda, where these issues were nowhere to be found just some years ago. Now we'll host what we call a ‘council’. That is, all members of the party will have the chance to discuss, while me and Peter Hultqvist will go out and talk. And that is what I believe in, not just from my own party, to get people involved in the discussions and not least young people.
As you mentioned, we had a meeting on gender issues and others. We have very consciously begun to talk about women, young women and girls. Not everyone appreciates it. Because they may not do it to the same extent. But it is quite obvious that there is a special vulnerability among young women and girls, where rape is used, and more, targeting young women and even girls in a way that is terrible. And the access to contraception, how to avoid becoming pregnant if you don’t wish for it, and the right to medical abortion, which now is declining around the world.
Emelie Weski, podcast host: (Synth music in background)
In January, 5,000 children and young refugees were stranded on their way to Europe on the Greek islands. Many fled escalating violence in Syria, physical push backs from Turkey, and then they got stuck between EU’s borders and the corona pandemic. Since then, the EU, in part, has taken responsibility and made a promise to relocate a large part of these children and young people. But that decision did not include a promise from Sweden. What is the Swedish view and your view on Sweden’s responsibility to offer protection and asylum to children and youth?
Ann Linde, minister of foreign affairs:
Sweden took an incomparable responsibility for children and young people during the big wave of refugees in 2015. There were over 70,000, of which 35,000 were unaccompanied minors. There is no state in Europe who comes close to the enormous responsibility that Sweden took then. Largest both in terms of per capita and second largest in terms of actual figures. So the responsibility that Sweden has taken is enormous. And, now we take the responsibility to expand schools and preschools, and all which this entails. So there is no basis whatsoever for saying that Sweden has not taken an enormous responsibility for children and young people who have fled. On the other hand, there is a basis for saying that all EU countries, that should take more responsibility, have not taken it. The resettlements that are being made right now, they are a drop in the ocean compared to what we have accomplished, and we should be proud of it. No one comes close.
Emelie Weski, podcast host:
I think there are many who are proud of the humanitarian work that Sweden does. But my follow-up question, as it were, can we really live on ‘old merites’ going towards the future? The number of refugees globally is, notably, extremely large. It will probably continue to increase. Countries even here in eastern Europe, may also soon be, a source of more refugees; LGBTQ refugees. So what you are saying, this means… You make it sound like we should be proud. But that's enough from now on. The protection and rights of asylum for children and young people will in the future not be something that Sweden is willing to provide for or stand by.
Ann Linde, minister of foreign affairs:
Sweden stands by the rights of asylum and we will continue to stand by the rights of asylum. ‘Old credentials’ is a somewhat sloppy wording as it comes down to young people whom we have made a lifelong commitment to, a commitment that from now on will apply a generation ahead. The important thing is that we get all these young people and children integrated into the Swedish society. So it is a long-term commitment. You could have talked about old merits if we just received them and then there was no commitment. This commitment will continue for many decades to come. And I mean, therefore, it is not possible to reason in this way: we did it then and then it's over. It continues for decades. And these are decisions that we, as future generations, will have to live with.
“But we continue to try to find out where these children are. If, and when possible, we want to bring all the children home. ”
Emelie Weski, podcast host: (Synth music in background)
There are several contexts that are difficult, challenging, and where children and young people in particular are in some kind of situation where they are in need of protection. For example, UNICEF reports that 50 children still remain in some kind of camp in Syria, they are children of ISIS[/ISIL]-fighters… But there are also other examples such as the situation of the Urghurs in China. How do you as the minister of foreign affairs, or how does Sweden, assess where to prioritise its resources? There are off course many who are in need… Are these contexts examples of what you imagine Sweden will get more involved in, in the future?
Ann Linde, minister of foreign affairs:
I would say that we can not get more involved with the children in the Al Hol camp than we have already.
It is an extremely difficult situation. In the first place, we have decided that we must help those who are orphaned. The ones we have brought home to Sweden, they are orphaned. We were just about to bring home another group, but they have been hidden by their relatives.
The thing that is difficult is that this camp, where these children are being held with their mothers, is governed by the Kurdish regional organisation. And the organisation is saying that there are over 12,000 Kurds who have lost their lives in the fight against IS. These mothers are confined because they have been involved in IS, in different ways. Some to a large extent and other to a much smaller extent. The Kurds are saying that ‘we will not release the detainees until they have been held accountable’. Accountability is something that Sweden always supports, in all situations. All who have taken part in conflicts and violence, no matter how, should be held accountable. In itself, something very difficult to argue against.
As a result there may be that some of these women, after they have gone through the legal process, maybe three others have been convicted. But that is the kind of accountability that a legal process offers. A legal system has already begun to be set up, but it has been stalled temporarily due to covid.
When it comes to the children who are not orphans the Kurds are referencing to the Convention on the Rights of the Child. Children will not be released if their mothers have them. They don’t wish to separate these children from their mothers. This means that it has been very difficult for any European country to bring home children where there is still a mother in the picture. Something that has been possible with orphans.
But as I said, many of those who sit in these camps don’t want their children to grow up in a country where the values differ from what they believe, and where the view on society is different compared to the view they hold themselves. And it is therefore, not only when Sweden does it, but others too, that when we try to bring these children home, their relatives hide them.
And then you should know that over or around 70,000 people live in these camps, in large tents, and all the mothers wear hijabs. So if you think it's easy to find them... That's not the case.
But we continue to try to find out where these children are. If, and when possible, we want to bring all the children home. Because they are of course in a terrible situation. It is our firm belief that we must try to bring them home. But as the situation is now, it is extremely difficult. And this applies not only to Sweden but to all European countries in the same situation.
Emelie Weski, podcast host:
Hey, I think we have to wrap this up. A question to the coach, if you got the time?
Ann Linde, minister of foreign affairs:
Yes, shoot!
Emelie Weski, podcast host:
Yes!
You started your career as the secretary general of LSU - Sweden's youth organizations. And you have also personally been very quick to both make contact with and help draw attention to youth-led protests internationally. In Belarus, for example, you are applauded by their national youth council, RADA, for being one of the first international politicians to come out in support of the demonstrators' call for a democratic change in Belarus.
What impact do you think your background as a youth activist has had on you now as Foreign Minister?
“Getting involved, the passion to correct injustices, and not least the network, and the belief that it is possible to create change - that is what I carry with me as Minister of Foreign Affairs.”
Ann Linde, minister of foreign affairs:
It impacts me a lot. Both when it comes to this strong feeling you get against injustices when you are active as a young person. You have fire and you also learn that you can create change. But that change takes time and that there can be setbacks.
We started, back when I became international secretary in 2000, we started with our campaign for a free and democratic Belarus. So it is a long term engagement. And I would like to say that what you learn as a youth activist, the contacts you make as a youth activist, it is completely priceless. You benefit from it all your life. To meet RADA, which is LSU's equivalent, you might say, in Belarus, and hear how they talk about LSU. And this ‘shrinking space’ collaboration between Swedish youth organizations and LSU and Belarusian youth organizations and RADA. It only strengthens me in my belief, that you must have active youth collaboration if you want to push things forward. It is young people who have brought this change forward. Getting involved, the passion to correct injustices, and not least the network, and the belief that it is possible to create change - that is what I carry with me as Minister of Foreign Affairs.
(Synth music outro abrupted by morse code)